Since my interests in many ways lie in the model of ministry exemplified by Driscoll and Mars Hill, I have had many informal conversations about what I think/know about these topics. Since many of the guys I know have fundamentalist baggage, I thought it might be helpful to post a first hand perspective of Mars Hill from someone with a similar background. I came across this comment in the comment section on MacArthur's post on "grunge christianity" a while back thanks to Jones' link. I since emailed Jonathan and asked if he'd mind if I posted the comment in full on my blog. I appreciate his willingness...you can check out his blog here. Below is his "comment" in full.
Starting off, I’ll openly admit I’m a member at Mars Hill Church in Seattle, where Mark Driscoll is my teaching pastor. I grew up in strict fundamentalism, attending high school at Maranatha Baptist Academy in Watertown, Wisconsin, and taking both my undergraduate and graduate degrees at Bob Jone University in Greenville, South Carolina. I have attended many forms of theologically and culturally conservative churches. I am an armchair theologian at best. I have read quite a few of these comments but did not read all of them, so my apologies if someone else has already addressed this.
The point of Pastor MacArthur’s article seems to be the certainty of sinful results in a life or ministry dedicated to “cultural relativism.” Pastor Mark’s style is offered as the primary example. Whether or not Pastor MacArthur’s article is correct in its overarching theme or not is not my place to say. But I do wish to tell you what I’ve seen and learned since coming to Seattle and joining the work at Mars Hill.
1) Conversions. Mars Hill is one of the most unusual churches I’ve attended. I have never before been involved anywhere where I have seen this number of committed, growing new believers. Twice a year or so, we’ll have major baptismal services, often at one of the beaches around Seattle, wherein fifty to one hundred new, adult converts publically declare their commitment to Jesus. I want emphasize that these are nearly all adults. Prior to coming to Mars Hill when I was 27, I can recall one baptismal service at one church wherein a majority of the converts (seven) were adults.
2) Growth/Sanctification. These new believers do not stay stagnant, nor do they typically leave Mars Hill as they mature spiritually. Seattle is a damaged town. It seems nearly everyone has been or is currently abused, addicted, abandoned, hurt, etc. This is a sad place. What I see happening at church, especially through the small groups I’ve been involved with, is a tremendous amount of change, not by simple personal resolution and determination to be more holy, but by the work of the Holy Spirit. (I have no other explanation for it.) Addicts admit their struggles, reject their idols, love Jesus, share the gospel, and become positive members of society. Fathers and husbands take responsibility for the sin and trouble they’ve wrought in their own lives and in their families and then work for change. People turn from every kind of sexual impurity to live in the light and love of Jesus, no longer abusing others or themselves. For the people of Mars Hill, holiness and sanctification is not just a change of thinking but a change of how one lives one’s life. That doesn’t mean any of us are perfect. Do we participate in a variety of things that my own church background and family’s traditions would consider sinful? Yes, we do. (Being human is not sinful. God has made each of us to enjoy different aspects of his creation and thank him for them.) However, everyone I know at the church is careful not to lead another believer into sin, even if that “sin” is just a conscience issue. We take responsibility to help our brothers and sisters. Do we participate in anything that Scripture plainly forbids? No, we do not. Again, we are also careful to help our fellow believers avoid temptations in their own lives and willingly give up our freedoms for the sake of God’s children. If one of our number does violate Christ’s commands, we confront him or her and help that person walk in repentance and humility. If that person continues in sin, we will deal (and have dealt) with him/her in the way Scripture commands.
For us, sanctification is not an issue of external change. It is the growth of Christ in each of us as we continually submit our lives and actions to him. As he changes us, we begin to see changes in each other, not necessarily in dress or stylistic preferences, but in how we relate to God and one another.
3) Love. Never before have I been at a church wherein the people were willing to consistently expose their own sin and evil and offer the undeserved kindness and love of Jesus to one another. While we may appear to be “come as you are,” we are not “stay as you are.” We are committed to Jesus and desire over anything else to reveal him to our fellow believers, our neighbors, and even our enemies through attitudes and acts of love. Love is creative and takes understanding of the one you are trying to love. As I tell my friends in my small groups, we do not love someone in order to make him become a believer. We love those God has put into our lives whether or not they ever become believers. We love one another as Christ loved the church. This is the work of God in a believer. This is an undeniable gift of his presence.
Please note that I am not saying that results or outcomes determine the appropriateness of a particular methodology. Nor am I an official voice of Mars Hill Church. I am not even a small group leader. I’m just a regular member who loves his church family and wants to share the wonderful things Jesus is doing in Seattle, despite our stumbles and foibles. We aren’t perfect and likely never will be. However, we do appreciate your prayers as we seek to share Jesus with our city.
Thanks for listening, and all the best as you share Jesus with the people where you live!
Showing posts with label Emerging Church. Show all posts
Showing posts with label Emerging Church. Show all posts
Wednesday, August 08, 2007
Monday, July 16, 2007
Some thoughts on "Missional"
As usual, I pick up on the trendy things a few years too late; I guess that comes from growing up as a fundy. While the rest of evangelicalism may view this term almost as dated as the term "postmodern" they both are still in my vocabulary.
I admit, it took me awhile to figure out exactly what was meant by "missional" and I'm not sure there is actually a concrete definition out there. But the gist that I've picked up on by it's usage (which of course is all that matters in my book - form vs. function again) is that it pertains to a church/individual who is on mission (duh). By that, it is often implied (and often explicit) that it is being on the mission of Jesus (or more likely the Triune God) and is often connected to the Kingdom. Teasing it out a little further, it's often used as those who are on mission and or missionaries to their culture, wherever they may find themselves. It typically has cultural engagement overtones and is used often in emerging church contexts (though of course the really cool emerging church types have probably abandoned it because it's too trendy these days).
For what it's worth, I like it. Some have argued that the term missional is not very missional itself (i.e. unbelievers don't know what you're talking about). True perhaps, but I think it's still a good term for inhouse discussion. Anyway, I like an adjective that can be used to sum up the idea of being on mission with Jesus that is Kingdom oriented in engaging the culture with the Gospel. It doesn't get much better than that (even if ascribing such a definition to a single word is culpable of being a raging linguistic fallacy capable of eclipsing TDNT).
I admit, it took me awhile to figure out exactly what was meant by "missional" and I'm not sure there is actually a concrete definition out there. But the gist that I've picked up on by it's usage (which of course is all that matters in my book - form vs. function again) is that it pertains to a church/individual who is on mission (duh). By that, it is often implied (and often explicit) that it is being on the mission of Jesus (or more likely the Triune God) and is often connected to the Kingdom. Teasing it out a little further, it's often used as those who are on mission and or missionaries to their culture, wherever they may find themselves. It typically has cultural engagement overtones and is used often in emerging church contexts (though of course the really cool emerging church types have probably abandoned it because it's too trendy these days).
For what it's worth, I like it. Some have argued that the term missional is not very missional itself (i.e. unbelievers don't know what you're talking about). True perhaps, but I think it's still a good term for inhouse discussion. Anyway, I like an adjective that can be used to sum up the idea of being on mission with Jesus that is Kingdom oriented in engaging the culture with the Gospel. It doesn't get much better than that (even if ascribing such a definition to a single word is culpable of being a raging linguistic fallacy capable of eclipsing TDNT).
Thursday, June 28, 2007
Church Planters Needed
My week in NH has confirmed the fact that some good church planters are needed in the good ole Granite State and surrounding regions. My wife and I visited an "emerging church" Sunday morning and I put the term in quotes because I felt like I was grossly underdressed in jeans and a button down with flip flops and badly in need of a shave when I walked thru the door. Seriously, the first few families we saw would have passed dress code at NBBC. Perhaps they engage the culture, but nobody engaged us, despite the fact we were desperately in need of determining if there was a nursery for the little one. I say all this not to bash them, but out of curiosity if the average visitor would stick around, let alone an unbeliever. Not your typical ec type of atmosphere. Futhermore, the dearth of reformed theology in my home state is staggering. Though the church we visited was connected to a reformed network, the speaker dropped the ball on both election and foreknowledge - two terms that appeared explicitly in the text. I felt like crying--or cussing since it was supposedly an emerging church :-)
Bottom line: Reformed guys willing to engage the culture are needed in the Northeast--badly from what I can see. However, the culture issue may be harder than you might expect. I think with the advent of technology particularly as it lends itself to globalization, the modern culture has made it's inroads into NH. Strange, because it wasn't so back when I was a teen, growing up here. A fundy church whose culture mirrored the 50's could survive and even thrive here. Yet, the young people I've seen cruising around Concord bear great resemblence to those of VA Beach. Likewise, the stores in the Mall have caught up with the rest of the world--heck, we even have a Starbucks! Nevertheless, the older generation is still stuck in it's modern (think worldview category here) ways. New Englanders hate change. AC is still not common in the houses (New Englanders don't need it--much to my chagrin :-). Likewise, though there may be a Starbucks (notice the singular), Dunkin Donuts still controls the masses. Everybody at church was sippin a D and D coffee - no iced grande quadshot etc. to be found. The cultural divide between the older and younger generations seems more exacerbated here in Concord than most places I've seen. Nevertheless, my global exposure is limited and my time here has been short. However, I'm convinced the region needs good reformed missional church planters.
Bottom line: Reformed guys willing to engage the culture are needed in the Northeast--badly from what I can see. However, the culture issue may be harder than you might expect. I think with the advent of technology particularly as it lends itself to globalization, the modern culture has made it's inroads into NH. Strange, because it wasn't so back when I was a teen, growing up here. A fundy church whose culture mirrored the 50's could survive and even thrive here. Yet, the young people I've seen cruising around Concord bear great resemblence to those of VA Beach. Likewise, the stores in the Mall have caught up with the rest of the world--heck, we even have a Starbucks! Nevertheless, the older generation is still stuck in it's modern (think worldview category here) ways. New Englanders hate change. AC is still not common in the houses (New Englanders don't need it--much to my chagrin :-). Likewise, though there may be a Starbucks (notice the singular), Dunkin Donuts still controls the masses. Everybody at church was sippin a D and D coffee - no iced grande quadshot etc. to be found. The cultural divide between the older and younger generations seems more exacerbated here in Concord than most places I've seen. Nevertheless, my global exposure is limited and my time here has been short. However, I'm convinced the region needs good reformed missional church planters.
Friday, June 15, 2007
More Driscoll Audio
I found these six lectures posted various places on the web, but first on Kevin Cawley's blog (who's background pic alone might make you want to move to Vancouver). I believe they're from the Acts 29 Bootcamp for church planters and Driscoll is addressing the Church, Gospel and Culture. I found them fascinating and insightful for a perspective on a culturally engaging approach to pastoral ministry (happy Baylor? I got around the HT :-)
Wednesday, June 13, 2007
Interview with Driscoll
Mike Corley interviews Driscoll regarding the contours of his life and ministry. Though the interviewer sounds like and employs some fundie ideology (listen for the catch phrases) overall Driscoll's responses are gracious and interesting.
(HT: Justin Taylor)
(HT: Justin Taylor)
Monday, May 07, 2007
Driscoll and the Emerging Church Conversation
I've had various talks with various people in various venues about the emerging church conversation. Generally speaking, I'm favorably disposed towards it, and think there is a lot to emply, though of course without embracing all of its tributaries (as if that were even possible). Many people view the conversation through the lens of Brian McLaren and others of his stream. I tend more towards the Reformed stream and often refer to Mark Driscoll. I haven't read anything first hand by McLaren (which is admittedly myopic on my part) which may be why I don't get so fired up when people bring up the topic, but I love Driscoll.
HOWEVER, people regularly, though with varying degrees of certainty, inform me that I am incorrectly associating Mark with the emerging church and that he left it a while back or at least disassociated himself. Granted, my take is based on his book Confessions of a Reformation Rev. Yet, the subtitle inclines me to think I'm right (hard lessons learned from an emerging missional church), not to mention the summary on the back cover (which opens with "Mark Driscoll's emerging missional church...). However, if that's not enough, I thought I'd point out several statements he makes in the book that I came across while rereading it this past weekend:
"Since the movevment, if it can be called that, is young and is still defining its theological center, I do not want to portray the movement as ideologically unified because I myself swim in the theologically conservative stream of the emerging church" (p. 22).
"For some Emergent [which Driscoll sharply distinguishes from the broader emerging] leaders, this critique may be as welcome as water on a cat. But I assure you that I speak as one within the Emerging Church Movememtn who has great love and appreciation for Christian leaders with theological convictions much different from my own" (p. 23).
Now granted, the book was published in 2006; maybe something has changed since then. Yet, I think his disassociation is more with people in the movement, and/or Emergent, which should not be confused with the emerging church conversation/movement (which is MUCH broader). I remain open to more recent correction if it's out there. In the meantime, I STRONGLY commend Scot Mcknight's lecture on the four rivers of the Emerging Church delivered at Westminster. It's a great explanation from a scholar within the movement communicated to those of a conservative, reformed mindset outside the movement. Very helpful and balanced. You can read the PDF here. I tried to find the audio files for it, but it appears you have to pay money for it now. Still, it's worth the read.
P.S. In case I was too subtle, this does indicate I finally finished ANOTHER book and in one weekend at that! Yeah, yeah, it WAS a Driscoll book and I HAD already read it, but heh...200 pages is 200 pages, and I'm not done for the month of May :-)
HOWEVER, people regularly, though with varying degrees of certainty, inform me that I am incorrectly associating Mark with the emerging church and that he left it a while back or at least disassociated himself. Granted, my take is based on his book Confessions of a Reformation Rev. Yet, the subtitle inclines me to think I'm right (hard lessons learned from an emerging missional church), not to mention the summary on the back cover (which opens with "Mark Driscoll's emerging missional church...). However, if that's not enough, I thought I'd point out several statements he makes in the book that I came across while rereading it this past weekend:
"Since the movevment, if it can be called that, is young and is still defining its theological center, I do not want to portray the movement as ideologically unified because I myself swim in the theologically conservative stream of the emerging church" (p. 22).
"For some Emergent [which Driscoll sharply distinguishes from the broader emerging] leaders, this critique may be as welcome as water on a cat. But I assure you that I speak as one within the Emerging Church Movememtn who has great love and appreciation for Christian leaders with theological convictions much different from my own" (p. 23).
Now granted, the book was published in 2006; maybe something has changed since then. Yet, I think his disassociation is more with people in the movement, and/or Emergent, which should not be confused with the emerging church conversation/movement (which is MUCH broader). I remain open to more recent correction if it's out there. In the meantime, I STRONGLY commend Scot Mcknight's lecture on the four rivers of the Emerging Church delivered at Westminster. It's a great explanation from a scholar within the movement communicated to those of a conservative, reformed mindset outside the movement. Very helpful and balanced. You can read the PDF here. I tried to find the audio files for it, but it appears you have to pay money for it now. Still, it's worth the read.
P.S. In case I was too subtle, this does indicate I finally finished ANOTHER book and in one weekend at that! Yeah, yeah, it WAS a Driscoll book and I HAD already read it, but heh...200 pages is 200 pages, and I'm not done for the month of May :-)
Thursday, May 03, 2007
Joe Zichterman
Remember A Passion for Thee and Perfect Peace? While I have heard snippets here and there, first hand second hand, three time removed and embellished, it's good to hear a first hand account of how the Lord has been working in Joe's life. If you haven't heard the lecture he delivered a few weeks back at TEDS (yeah, we know...easy sweet guys) check it out on his website here. Look for the audio link Why I joined Willow Creek Community Church. You might not like it all, but it's definately interesting. Of course you can check out all the dorm room gossip in the usual place(s) after (if your sanctification can stand it), but make sure you hear what he has to say first.
(HT: J to the Third Power) While this hat tip may seem strange seeing at the time I posted this there was nothing on his blog...credit to who it is due leads me to tip my hat to Jones for pointing to this link. Likewise, I believe he has some thoughts brewing that will most likely shared in the next 24 hours or so--so keep your eyes on J to the Third Power too!
(HT: J to the Third Power) While this hat tip may seem strange seeing at the time I posted this there was nothing on his blog...credit to who it is due leads me to tip my hat to Jones for pointing to this link. Likewise, I believe he has some thoughts brewing that will most likely shared in the next 24 hours or so--so keep your eyes on J to the Third Power too!
Thursday, April 26, 2007
Not Me
Once again, Cokesbury has some great deals, this time topping out at 90% of the original price. I accquired 9 books for under $20 one of the best deals being Harrington's commentary on Matthew in the Sacra Pagina series. Originally $40 I got it for $4. Not bad for a hardback with over 400 pages. However, of the batch, I think my favorite is the little paperback pictured below. Who's Afraid of Postmodernism is just over 100 pages of a PhD from Villanova (now on faculty at Calvin) wrestling with how postmodernism should and does intersect with the church, all the while writing for laymen and pastors. So far it's been a page turner and I might actually finish this one, as that's exactly the sort of question I've been wrestling with recently a la the emerging church conversation.
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